Talk:Dieu et mon droit

" Comment about the right hand" That can't refer to the right hand because in French the heraldic term for it has been dextre since ever.

Comments

Regarding The Age masthead, the impression is given that some people do not like this but a link is given to only one person's complaint. I propose further research on this is needed or removal of the comment. Ozwebfx (talk) 00:18, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

" Comment about the right hand" That can't refer to the right hand because in French the heraldic term for it has been dextre since ever.

Actually, Anglo-French was already a dead language by Henry VI's time. Like Latin, it's a traditional language for things like mottoes (E Pluribus Unum) and legal jargon. The bailiff of the U.S. Supreme court calls "Oyez! Oyez! Oyez!" (the Anglo-French equivalent of the more familiar "Hear ye! Hear ye! Hear ye!") when the court convenes.

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Well..my name is Michael Raymond i am a vary far decendent of king henry and his prhase that he had i own the royal coat of arms thus it was pasted down to me but the phrase is vary vary old and to me back than the words didnt need to make since as long as they have the meaning they want they dont care...but please if you have any questions about the history please contact me at ekimlaerecnam@aim.com have a good day!

I've seen some references to the idea that this motto preserves an archaic spelling (or a simple mispelling) and should actually be read as "Dieu est mon droit" - i.e. God is my right - which makes more sense to me as a motto. Is this verifiable? fabiform | talk 09:09, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)

A misspelling is certainly possible, but an archaic form is not. Both et and est are very old, possibly (though I'm not sure) going all the way back to Latin. Xyzzyva 22:23, Dec 21, 2004 (UTC)

Correct

Yes, I had always thought that the motto was Dieu est mon droit - The Lord is my liege. In fact, I'm damned sure that's the correct version. roger.duprat.copenhagen —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.243.127.162 (talk) 22:43, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

It's et, and you can confirm this by looking at any British passport. As for the age of et and est, they are found even in the very earliest Latin texts, which makes them at least two and a half millennia old. Very similar terms probably existed right back in prehistory, before our languages split, as we can see from is in English, ist in German, jest in Russian, etc. — Chameleon 04:05, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

It is nothing you can confirm, but I heard it from an Old Judge in British Columbia, Canada that it means God is my law. The et is Anglo-Norman, and it means estre. This is confirmable with dictionaries. It means God is my Law, law meaning rule of Action, God is my Rule of Action. It is written there so that subjects can show they are literate in the courts, and if they are literate, they are to be treated very nicely, because, you know, they are a precious resource. 2001:569:7D68:4700:1A7:FAD:372:D474 (talk) 09:51, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

"Honi soit qui mal y pense"

Why is the comment about "Honi soit qui mal y pense" necessary? The Order of the Garter was founded ~65-70 years earlier, and the fact that it has a French motto seems irrelevant unless there is some other connection that hasn't been mentioned here. Kyriosity 02:21, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, they go together. They are both on the front of all our passports. — Chameleon 03:53, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

use of the Royal Arms and Royal motto in courts

This is my 1st Article about; Wikipedia articles on: The use of the Royal Arms and Royal motto in courts. In all courts throughout England and Wales, all Judges and Magistrates sit beneath the Royal Coat of Arms with the motto; “DIEU ET MON DROIT - GOD AND MY RIGHT” In the Queens Coronation oath, she makes her solemn oath in the sight of all the people by “laying her right hand upon the Bible saying: So help me God.” This oath is in accordance with Magna Carta Statutes: “John, by the grace of God King of England,” “Know that before God.” [61] “We give public and free permission to take the oath …we will compel any of our subjects who are unwilling to take it to swear it at our command.” This oath is compelled to be sworn by jurors, witnesses and the accused, in all law courts. The Court Usher compels the subject to place their left hand upon the Bible [representing God] and to raise their right hand. They then state the oath; “I swear by almighty God.....” Accordingly I/we all swear on oath by “God (h)and my right” - before and using - "God and my right". The Court’s use of DIEU - GOD, is not to British Monarchs, as this originates from the pledge of allegiance to English Kings/Queens; “In the name of God, King and Country.” Pledges of allegiance to all Germanic British Kings/Queens since the 1701 Act of Union, replaced this pledge with; “In the name of the King/Queen, his/her heirs and successors.” Stephen2nd (talk) 14:29, 16 April 2008 (UTC) Any comments ? [References]: [Coquetdale Magistrates Court]: Road Traffic Act: GH/GH/0033022. 3/01 to 21/09/1995. Chief Constable of Northumbria Police: John Stevens v. Stephen Mowbray McDermott. G Hogg [re Lord Chancellor]: Royal Arms displayed in all courts in England and Wales. [NB: not in all courts throughout the country]Stephen2nd (talk) 14:29, 16 April 2008 (UTC) Any Comments ? [Wikepedia]: Royal Coat of Arms: Motto: Magna Carta: Coronation and Judicial OathsStephen2nd (talk) 15:03, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

I just removed the quotes and some other parts of the argument that "Dieu et mon Droit" derives from oath taking. I left the basic proposition with a fact tag. If the basic proposition is not given serious, verifiable sourcing by Friday, 25 April, I will remove it. -Rrius (talk) 21:35, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

As indicated in reference to my 1st article, this is a substantial ongoing work in progress. Although I accept your right to edit Wikepedia articles, please allow me my right to cite my full research evidence into the public domain, on the Royal Arms, Motto and Garter. This link between the Motto “Dieu et mon droit” and its meaning as “God and my right” has been only been established in terms of its French, to its English language translation, which can equally be said of the Magna Carta, in its translations from Latin to English. People consult encyclopedias in their research for and hopeful discoveries of knowledge. In terms of academic research, as in judicial procedings, it is up to the jury to determine what is the truth, or the facts of the case, based on their hearing all of the case evidence. I’ve only began submitting evidences, including; defending the monarchs rights to rule.

The basic proposition that Dieu et mon droit derived from oath taking is a matter of law. According to the law, it is a legal requirement that you must use both hands as part of the ritual of taking the Oath. One hand on the Bible [God] and you must raise the other hand. It is also factual that all courts in England and Wales display the Royal Arms, containing the motto’s hidden and un-translated meaning of the specific phrase; “God and my right.” It is a verifiable fact that Magna Carta is Kings Statute law, and courts are courts of law. The Magna Carta, which many believe is the foundation of both the law, and of rights, is the earliest known legal document to actually state the relevant phrases; to take the oath; swear it at our command; sworn; without deceit; Witness, and also; Given by our hand.

Modern religious and political usage and meaning of “God” are as infinitesimal as the meanings of “my right,” which can equally be said of Magna Carta and rights and laws. The meanings of the motto and Magna Carta in their original forms were concealed in a secret and disguised way of writing, ie French and Latin, until transformed into English. The historical meanings of Magna Carta text in 1215ad, were only known to the people actually involved in its creation, had access to the document and or could interpret Latin. In its original Latin form, the Magna Carta was incomprehensible to the majority of the 1215; people of this land, which could neither speak Latin, or even read or write English. [Magna Carta BL]: “The translation sets out to convey the sense rather than the precise wording of the original Latin.” Further evolutions may also seem relevant in this context: Freedom of the Churches elections - a right reckoned to be of the greatest necessity and importance to it; in elections today, we still put a C13th “X” rather than write our name? That the ‘English Church’ be free and have its rights undiminished – Church of England?

The term given by our hand, has many historical, royal, political and modern meanings, laterally thinking; [phonetic] Write is right. [Logic] Most hands are extensions of Arms. [C11th MS] Edgar; King of the English 959-975: depicted holding a palm in his hands, which is the earliest known reference to the term; Palm of the hand. [Longcroft’s C14th: Chronicle of England]: Henry II debating with Becket emphasizing on fingers and hands. [Brockhaus]: C19th Nazi salute: Installation and coronation of German kings with "Heil". Hitler and Himmler regarded Nazi salute as identical with the rendering of a judicial oath. Since 1945, this salute and the judicial oath are now forbidden by law in Germany. Thus witnesses and accused, cannot commit perjury, regardless of what they say during a trial.

NB: Sensus verborum est anima legis: Dieu et mon Droit: Scire debes cum quo contrahis. Stephen2nd (talk) 23:08, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

The most charitable thing I can say is that your argument is original research, which is not the province of any encyclopedia. It is therefore against Wikipedia policy. See WP:No original research. As such, I am going to delete the conclusion that "Dieu et mon droit" originates with oath swearing. I would suggest that if you wish to include this conclusion in the article, you ought to prepare text that is fully sourced. That includes the conclusion itself, not just premises. I would also suggest that you make the text more reader friendly than your last attempt. -Rrius (talk) 23:23, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Like Rrius, I encourage you to read "Wikipedia:No original research", especially the section "Synthesis of published material serving to advance a position" before continuing to contribute to this article. Even if individual facts are verifiable, the conclusion that they lead you to cannot be included in the article unless it has been verifiably published by a reliable source.

“A Message from his Majesty the King" :

"To all serving in my Forces by sea or land, or in the air, and indeed, to all my people engaged in the defence of the Realm, I commend the reading of this book. For centuries the Bible has been a wholesome and strengthening influence in our national life, and it behoves us in these momentous days to turn with renewed faith to this Divine source of comfort and inspiration.” George VI: (father of Queen Elizabeth.) 15th September 1939. Ref: Holy Bible: Active Service Edition.

King James Version of the Holy Bible:

“Great and manifold were the blessings, most dread Sovereign, which Almighty God, the father of all mercies, bestowed upon us the people of England, when first he sent your Majesties Royal Person to rule and reign over us... (e.g.: Divine right of kings.) …we may rest secure and supported within the truth and innocency of a good conscience, which will ever give countenance to honest and Christian endeavours against bitter censures and uncharitable imputations.”Stephen2nd (talk) 14:57, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

References

The term "God (h)and my right"

Ref: Rrius. What is with the "h"? If there is a story there, tell it; otherwise, leave it out.

According to “Kearsley’s Complete Peerage” (1799) - Translation of Mottos: (xxiii) Dieu et mon Droit meaning “God and my right hand” was the motto of King George III. This is re-quoted in An Historical Encyclopedia (Pg 227).by M E Snodgrass, (2003) and again in “Questions and Answers Notes and Queries” (Pg 109) by M de Albuquerque (1906). The Encyclopedia Britannica; (1911) quotes the two words “Dieu et......” among its oaths, and also M de Albuquerque further quotes the two words; ‘Mon Droit’ as “Right hand.”

This “Oath” meaning is argued by Foreign Service Journal (Pg 24) by American Foreign Service Association (1974) stating “Dieu et mon Droit”, stands for "God and my lawful right" and not "God and my right hand." Although Americana – (Pg 437): by American Historical Society (1926), also History of American Genealogy (Pg 112) by RB Ferrall (1981) both quote Kearsley’s; King George III’s interpretation “God and my right hand.”

NB: Kearsley’s Peerage; printed June 1799, appeared during publication of the 1st Edition (1796-1808): of the German “Brockhaus Encyclopedia;” emphasizing the raising of the ‘Right Hand’ during installations and coronations of German Kings; (such as George III.)

NB: All British oaths; (Allegiance; Privy Council; parliamentary; military and judicial oath etc) all use a holy book (representing God) and the “Right Hand.” All these “Oaths” without exception, are all sworn before this “Royal Arms’ – motto; – Dieu et mon Droit.” Stephen2nd (talk) 14:27, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Is there any reason to interpret the French term this way though? Mon droit means ‘my entitlement’; whereas ma droite means "my right [hand]". — Chameleon 03:56, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

revert

REF: Wombat: remove section added by user claiming to say that his name is a cypher of motto (per WP:NOR and WP:V) (undo) Reference: This version of the page has been revised. Besides normal editing, the reason for revision may have been that this version contains factual inaccuracies, vandalism, or material not compatible with the GNU Free Documentation License.

This is not Original Research and is verified: Fox-Davis discovered two ciphers within and without the garter, as published (fact) in 1908. The reversed (King Charles) ( N ) is on the Kings Manor in York (fact), the reversed (King Charles) garter is in a Devon church (fact). Eikon visualised the HOPE cipher (fact) and little finger (cipher KEY) (fact) in C17th. The little finger (cipher) is visualised in the Richard III, Henry VIII portraits, (fact) also in the Diana Spencer Vogue photo (fact): The mon droit = right hand is well referenced The numeric sequence cipher key is referenced to Walpole, (fact) and the motto, as published by the international academy of heraldry (fact).

The ability to put a little finger on the ( N ), of the motto, then point left & right seven times to the letters D:E:R:M:O:T:T; is a fact. By transposing the garter according to these cipher references, with the same procedure to create the S:T:E:P:H:E:N; is another fact.

These names have been ciphered in the garter and motto, for over 650 years. Not by me!

My contributions to this article is non-profit making, and in the name of public interest. As Wikepedia is also non-profit, I am reverting the current edit by wombat, as I, and Wikepedia have no interest in promoting commercial advertising for any goods retailers. Especially as he and the company refer to a prior Wikepedia version of this article, from over six months ago, this was cited for its inaccuracies, and then changed. The version I am reverting to, was written by request, and Wikepedia consensus on the ( N ) cipher. Stephen2nd (talk) 12:44, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

What consesus and verifiability is there on this? You're trying to prove that your own name is a cypher of this motto. That seems (apart from anything else), to be entirely original research, unverifiable and not notable (Wikipedia:Notability). I'm going to revert your revision, as your editing doesn't make much sense to people apart from yourself (Place little finger (right hand) as a pivot on the [ N ]: Point the index finger (left & right) (seven times) for example). By the tone of this comment you have left to me, you seem to think you own this article (which you don't).

As Wikepedia is also non-profit, I am reverting the current edit by wombat, as I, and Wikepedia have no interest in promoting commercial advertising for any goods retailers. - I don't understand what you mean by this - when have I said you have wanted to advertise on Wikipedia?

Especially as he and the company refer to a prior Wikepedia version of this article, from over six months ago, this was cited for its inaccuracies, and then changed. - DITTO - what company are you talking about?

Finally The version I am reverting to, was written by request - can you provide a source for that?

You could try to be civil to me as well (WP:CIV). For future reference, Stephen2nd, my username is Dancingwombatsrule, not "wombat". --DWR^talk 22:29, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

Your attempts at trying to obtain meaningful answers is honourable, but unnecessary. If you look back through the talk page and his prior edits here, you'll note a theme of oddness.-Rrius (talk) 22:39, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for adding my sig, Stephen2nd. I wasn't trying to go anon., I just forgot. No offense intended, by the way; I just think your edits and explanations are often a bit unusual. -Rrius (talk) 01:35, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

An interesting passage / ciphers

Firstly, two sites cite this source, which doesn't exist any more (try clicking on it). However, one page that cites it, http://www.policeoracle.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6234&PN=1, quotes this passage: Dieu et mon droit' (French for 'God and my right') is the motto of the Sovereign. The words were the countersign (military password) chosen by King Richard 1 before the battle of Gisors in 1198, meaning that he was no vassal of France, but owed his royalty to God alone. The French were defeated in battle, but the password was not adopted as the royal motto of England until the time of Henry VI (1422-61) and has since been retained by his successors. The motto appears below the shield on the Royal Coat of Arms. Although the link won't work, it's clearly from a British government source and should therefore be believed. Note it cites Henry VI not Henry V. Could work as a reference also if you can get round the page not existing.

As for the reverts over ciphers, I think a couple of short sentences wouldn't go amiss, carefully worded and backed up with references. Much of the formatting used in previous edits is unacceptable, however, IMHO. Definitely mention the alternative translation, but it is definitely secondary to 'God and my right'. Something to the equivalent of because of the lack of clarity in the exact wording and intended meaning, due to, in part, the corruption of the original Old French, there are other possibilities for the phrase's translation...

They're my views, and I think a cautious attempt to include some of the content of in particular Stephen2nd, without the formatting and wholly incorrect tone, would be the best move forward. Jarry1250 (talk) 21:19, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Hi there Jarry1250, and thank you for your opinions, and the Sneaky Beaky quotes. Can you please specify which of the following texts should be, or should not be included in this article? Also, can you elaborate on your use of the words “tone",and "formatting” I only read and write unemotional technical encyclopaedia's, articles etc, solely to state facts in as least words as possible. Please do not take any offence from my research writings, as this is unintentional.

Translations: DIEU ET MON DROIT: (Meanings): (1): God and my right: (2): God and my right hand: [7][8][9][10][11] (3): God and my lawful right: [12] (4): God and my right shall me defend: [13]The meaning of Dieu et mon droit is God and my right. However, according to “Kearsley’s Complete Peerage” (1799): Dieu et mon Droit meaning “God and my right hand” was the motto of King George III. Kearsley’s Peerage; printed June 1799, appeared during publication of the 1st Edition (1796-1808): of the German “Brockhaus Encyclopedia;” emphasizing the raising of the ‘Right Hand’ during installations and coronations of German Kings. Later interpretations quote Dieu et mon droit, stands for "God and my lawful right" and not "God and my right hand.":Heraldic Usage: DIEU ET -&- MON DROIT: Most depictions of the Royal Arms separate the DIEU ET from the MON DROIT: The DIEU ET is always depicted beneath the rear/bottom feet (paws: hooves: claws) of the dexter (right) Royal supporter i.e. The Lion or Boar. The MON DROIT is always depicted beneath the rear feet of the sinister Royal supporter i.e. The Greyhound, Dragon or Unicorn. The DIEU ET (on its own) is also listed among terminologies of giving an oath. [14] The MON DROIT (on its own) is further quoted in terminology meaning: " My right hand ":[15] The DROIT (on its own) is quoted as meaning in French; law; a legal title, claim or due.[16]:Royal Banners: DIEU ET MON –&- DROYT: (SEE: Royal Standard of England): (Banners: [17]): All Royal Standards separate the DIEU ET MON from the DROYT. As can be seen in the Banners of Edward III: Richard II: Edward IV: Henry V ( 2 ): Henry VII ( 2 ): NB: Under Cromwell, (Commonwealth) his motto separates PAX QUAERITUR from BELLO: NB: The Earl of Mar (Scotland) motto separates JE PENSE from PLUS: Regards Steve. Stephen2nd (talk) 22:15, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Changes

In oine with my previous comments, I propose the following additions (highlighted in bold):

The motto is French for "God and my right" (A fuller version of the motto is also quoted as "God and my right shall me defend").[4] There are several alternative translations suggested by historians: these include God and my right to defend [citation] and the fairly common God and my right hand [citation], a reference to the raising of the right hand when an oath is taken. Occasionally, the word lawful is added to clarify which meaning is intended.[citation]

I'm worried about this section: Originally spelled Dieut et mon droict in early Modern French, the t in Dieut and c in droict were later dropped in accordance with present French orthography.[citation needed]

Although it's entirely possible, I can't find even one website that supports it.

That's the first change, comments are welcome: I won't actually change it for a couple of days. - Jarry1250 ^{(t, c)} 19:53, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Do you have any references for these alternate translations? --DWR^talk 18:32, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Stephen did. They'll need a little work (Publisher, date, that sort of thing), but you can see them on the times when they were included by him. - Jarry1250 ^{(t, c)} 17:29, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

In the spirit of being bold, make these changes. If desired, they can always be reverted. --DWR^talk 00:26, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

I'm skeptical that dieu ever had a final t. droict is plausible (I can't say for sure whether or not I've seen it) because it's cognate with direct. —Tamfang (talk) 10:40, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

Wiktionary does list droict as Middle French, but the c is merely a learned etymological spelling, introduced by scholars who knew Latin and tried to make the word look more similar to its Latin source (see French orthography#Middle French), and was never pronounced in French. The Old French form is simply droit, or earlier dreit. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 19:30, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

References

The Coke reference (to The Fourth Part of the Institutes of the Laws of England) does not appear to support the statement it is supposed to support. The claim in the article is that Dieu et mon droit is sometimes translated "God and my right shall me defend", but the article says (as best I can find), that "the ancient Motto of the King of England is, God and my right (intelligitur) shall me defend". It is a minor point, but that does not necessarily support that this is a translation of the French. For all we know, Coke is asserting that the motto has meant that since before the Conquest. I don't believe that, but we need a better source.

The Martim de Albuquerque source needs to be more precise. It appears Notes and Queries is a multi-volume set. Which volume is supposed to support the claim in the article?

It is not clear why Americana, Notes and Queries, or The History of American Genealogy should be considered reliable sources for the translation. Quotes from them could be helpful, but they are cumulative, so I am going to delete them. I think the other sources support the point adequately. -Rrius (talk) 23:43, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Chain and Crown

Does anyone know what the crown attached to the chain around the neck of the unicorn represent? Jack forbes (talk) 23:51, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

I just found out why the chain is there. It seems the mythical unicorn was considered a very dangerous beast when free. I presume the crown represents the Scottish crown? Jack forbes (talk) 23:57, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Translations

None of english translation of "Dieu et mon droit" seems right according to the summary of this article explaining that this motto refers to the divine right of the king to govern see Divine Right of Kings . According to this explanation, the word "mon" ("my" in English) refers to the king and that motto is said by the king/queen so better translation respecting the meaning of the original sentence should be "My divine right". Lpele (talk) 14:13, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

The other half of the union...

Hi Brendandh. It's not only the webfolk at Buck house, Dieu et mon droit is often shown on the Scottish "version" of the Arms in Scotland. Also, calling the standard version, the "English version" is rather inaccurate since it is used everywhere outside of Scotland, such as Wales, N. Ireland, Canada, Australia etc. The political reality is that Great Britain, and the United Kingdom, are continuations of the Kingdom of England, and always have been. The Royals website is simply conforming to this political reality, and the only Royal Family that didn't was the Stuarts, understandably. You're view on this is irrelevant, citing a 3rd party, inaccurate source, over the Royal's website is not reasonable, or sensible. Regards, Rob (talk) 22:59, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

Ok. No 1. the house of Stuart/Stewart has been the only reigning house of GB/UK other than the House of Hanover (no matter the latter's name changes) since the acts of union. No 2. Surely it is, a combination of honours ain't rare, (and I'd like to see a date for the sculpture in your link above!) "Dieu et mon droit" may well be used by previous colonies, using England's achievements rather than the 'other' realm(s) within the United Kinggdom because of its relative size and influence. But "In Defens...&c" is undoubtedly the royal Scottish motto regardless, and is the motto for use in Scotland. Perhaps you may care to contact the Lyon Court in that regard? (I'd say that the correct usage in Wales is "Ich Dien" btw!) Regards. Brendandh (talk) 23:56, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

Further, this sculpture dates from the late mid/late 18th c. when the Hanoverians, had just put down the Jacobites. Bearing the arms of George III to William IV, my suspicion is that the sculptor of this piece was either an Englishman with superior cultural pretensions, or an ill-educated Unionist Scot. A mish-mash of two distinct heraldic traditions, all the more compelling when it appears to be located in the Royal Burgh of Linlithgow, with all that place's Jacobite connotations! Brendandh (talk) 09:41, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

I'm going to do some more research into this. That there is even any motto/s of the UK is currently unreferenced. Regards, Rob (talk) 18:00, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

Article is wrong. "Est" meant "is" and "et" meant "and" in Old French, just as in modern French.

"Estre" was the verb for "to be" in Old French and Anglo-Normand. "Est" meant "is", then as now.

"Et" was the word for "and", going back all the way to the Langue d'Oeil (as well as Latin) from which Old French was derived.

This can be seen in the 842 Oaths of Strasbourg:

"Pro Deo amur et pro christian poblo et nostro commun salvament."

"Dieu et mon Droit" in Old French meant "God AND my right", not "God is my right."

JD

Comparing the language in the Oaths of Strasbourg (Old French, 842) to "Dieu et mon droit" (Anglo-Norman, late 12th century ) is pretty much like expecting Jane Austen to write like Chaucer. 05:36, 6 February 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jaucourt (talk • contribs)

I agree. By the time that motto was coined, "e" had pretty much become the standard spelling for "and" in Anglo-Norman French, as evidenced in the first copy we have of "The Song of Roland", the first literary French text ever. There, all occurrences of "and" are spelled "e". If the motto had been meant to mean "God and my right", it definitely have read, "Dieu e mon droit". Additionally, "God and my right" is an incomplete sentence that makes no sense since "and" would be a conjunction coordinating unrelated items while a subject–verb–object makes perfect sense as a sentence structure to justify the King's assertion that "God is my right" to govern. Président (talk) 03:00, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

• I've reverted the change of "and" to "is" as it is pure WP:OR (as well as being mistaken). Reliable sources have always translate it as God and my right (and by the way heraldic mottos are often incomplete sentences.) Here's an example of a source: the official website of the British monarchy. DeCausa (talk) 07:54, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

I've also reverted the change which cited the Anglo-Norman dictionary. That is WP:SYNTH as it makes no mention of this motto. Again, just original research. Before anyone says that the Buckingham Palace website (above) and other sources have got it wrong I would direct them to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. I've amended the lead to use this source which points out that it was adopted Henry V to refer to his "right" to the French throne. That means that by the time of its adoption in written form it was in Middle French and any discussion of Anglo-Norman etc is irrelevant anyway. DeCausa (talk) 08:01, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

This is just a common mistake as he said "Dieu et mon droit" doesn't mean anything in current French, this would have been an unfinished sentence, while "Dieu est mon droit" is obvious, this motto means I rule by the grace of god, my right to rule comes from god which is the classical justification of kings, their way to find legitimacy. At that time there was no precise spelling imposed and et or est just sounds the same. Diderot translate it God is my right in his Encyclopedia, this and common sense are already 2 good sources and reasons to correct this article and put back "God is my right" as the main translation. Oh and Henry V didn't invent this, it came from Richard I (if not before), Henri V just made it his motto. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.226.248.7 (talk) 14:48, 28 June 2015 (UTC) "Dieu et mon droit" is translated into modern French on the FR portal as "Mon droit divin", or "My divine right." See : https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dieu_et_mon_droit It would seem appropriate to include this alternative interpretation in the English wiki. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 176.153.196.167 (talk) 21:12, 27 September 2016 (UTC)

I've heard it translated "God is my right" by a sitting provincial court Judge in BC. It means "god is my law," droit/jus and lex meaning the same thing. People are well advised to realize that the suppression of the Law of God is a serious way that International Communism destroy people's brains. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:569:7A31:4B00:A585:FD40:D499:1D35 (talk) 05:50, 15 December 2016 (UTC)

See http://www.anglo-norman.net/dict/AND-201-53828C71-80DCE522-84172DEC-C5ACF8FD entry for "estre", the verb "to be" "estre3, eistre, ester, estere, estier, estiere, etre; istre; aistre, astre (ethre Receptaria 92 93); ind.pr.1 seo, siu, su, sue, sui; ind.pr.2 es, iés; ind.pr.3 e, es, est, eist, eit, et, estz;" "es" is therefore the indirect present third person, so "God is my law" is an appropriate translation I guess this sort of counts as original research, as the point could be debated, but it should at least be in the talk section. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." (John 1:1) "In the beginning was the Law, and the Law was with God, and the Law was God." (John 1:1) Also see the ancient laws of england, e.g. law of Alfred, which contains translation of the ten commandments, as well as sections of exodus, as well as new testament selections, including the the epistle to Antioch: "28For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; 29That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well." (Acts 15:28-29) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:569:7A31:4B00:A585:FD40:D499:1D35 (talk) 06:09, 15 December 2016 (UTC)

French not Latin

I removed 'Similarly, "Dieu est mon droit" is a devise which also existed in the Latin language in the 16th or 17th centuries. [1]' The reference may seem to say something like "... and several mottoes in Latin; among others, the one which says Dieu est mon droit" but this does not make it true, it just shows that the reference is unreliable here. For example Latin would start with Deus or something similar, perhaps Deus meum ius est 11:44, 4 December 2018 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.225.81.66 (talk)

Use of French "not unusual"?

Under "Language" there's a statement that it was not unusual for a royal motto to be in French. However, no citation is given for that. One might wonder how many such mottos have existed since William the Conqueror, and of those how many have been in French - but perhaps that wasn't the intention. Would it be more relevant to say it isn't surprising that this motto is in French because it comes from Richard I? (Both of his parents were born in France, and reliable sources state that he seldom spoke any English, perhaps never.) TooManyFingers (talk) 15:54, 21 September 2023 (UTC)