Talk:New Jersey Institute of Technology

Cutting out of awards won by Alumni from the opening paragraph

On several occasions a short list of awards won by NJIT alumni have been either removed or relocated from the opening paragraphs (3 in all) in the NJIT page. I am perplexed by this as a review of other stem-focused schools shows that most have similar listings in their opening paragraphs. So, it appears that if the school is famous enough, such lists are OK but for lesser-known schools it's a no-no. Among its alumni, NJIT counts a Turing Award winner, Judea Pearl, a congressional medal of Honor winner - one of the monuments men - and National Medal of Technology and Innovation recipient. Call me biased but I think it's pretty clear that a double-standard is in place and has been for quite a while. For example, check out MIT or Stanford or Harvard or Carnegie Mellon or NYU or University of Pennsylvania or University of Texas at Austin or University of California, at: Los Angeles, San Diago, Santa Barbara, etc. etc. (my hand is getting tired.) SO, what gives??? Rrsimone (talk) 17:42, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

"Well, that article has X, therefore that justifies Y on this article" is a very old argument that has rarely been accepted, not to mention that it is a textbook fallacy. As for ledes on university articles, they need to follow the stringent rules outlined by the dominant consensus on descriptions of university reputations on ledes. Alumni sections need to follow WP:DUE, and ledes as a whole need to be compliant with MOS:LEDE. The former outlines the due weight that is necessary for inclusion (i.e., like having a sufficiently weighted alumni section in the body), and the latter outlines that ledes are reflections of an article's body content. So for the NJIT material, it lacked the body weight and cut straight to imposing an alumni lede — this is probably one of the most common issues out there regarding WP:BOOSTER. I've detailed this ad nauseam on the very pages you've cited. GuardianH (talk) 17:34, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

accessing a comment interchange that no longer seems to be available on one pariy's talk pg.

Template:HELP I sent a note to GuardianH on his talk page regarding his relocating of a short list of notable awards,e.g.Turing,from the opening paragraphs of the New Jersey Institute of Technology article to the list of notable alumni. The relocation was done on 4 July, this year. I put my write up on both his talk page and my talk page shortly thereafter. I've had important issues to deal with lately and I would like to continue the conversation but that conversation no longer appears on guardian's talk page, or more likely, it's there but I don't know how to access it. Rrsimone (talk) 17:05, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

@GuardianH: I think this is referring to an interaction with you. ElKevbo (talk) 22:35, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

It had little to no weight or support in the body, obviously lacking being WP:DUE from the beginning. The lede needs to be a due reflection of the body in accordance with MOS:LEDE, as I mentioned previously. GuardianH (talk) 23:41, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

Hello Guardian, I appreciate your citing all the rules. After reading them several times, especially the one about “weight”, which you seem to lean on the most, I have three comments:

First, in the present context, there is the fundamental problem with “weight”, in that it is a highly subjective criteria. (If I were writing rules I would never use a word like weight.) Second, applying the concept of weight to medals, awards, honors, etc., which are discrete and won by individuals, seems misplaced to me. If you are going to use the concept, it should be applied to things that play, or don’t play, major roles in college life at that instruction, e.g. athletic, scholastics, community involvement, co-op programs, religion, political leanings, taking courses at foreign universities, ROTC involvement, social life, on-campus diversity, general characteristic of the student body, e.g. economic strata, where they come from, age distribution, etc. Third, as I read your comment, what you seem to be saying/suggesting is that if an institution, via its alumni, active teaching staff, visiting fellows or contracted researchers, can claim a large number of accolades then, ipso facto, that aspect of the institution has the “weight” that allows it to mention the awards up front. Otherwise, your accolades, if any, go to the rear of the bus.

I think the problem with this is extremely obvious: Big name, big endowment institutions are always going to have the necessary “weight” because they use the dividends on their (enormous) endowments to fund research and to offer perks, e.g., inexpensive mortgages, light or no teaching load, etc. to “attract” big name researchers. The effects are pernicious. It’s enough to make me wonder how any public institution ever manages to attract/retain any accolade winners at all, a problem that your application of “weight” only makes worse.

Lastly, you clearly know Wikipedia’s rules, procedures, etc. better than I do. And since I see your take on weight in this context as a serious problem, I would like to present my case to the appropriate dispute-resolution committee/body. I would be willing to accept any decision they come to. Also, I would like your initial response to my first comment to be part of what’s considered; in particular, where you talk about having to deal with this issue “ad nauseam”. If you are so inclined, could you open a dispute, or could you tell me how to do it. If you are not interested in getting this going, please let me know. PS. I checked 10 more “big name” institutions and it the same old, accolades-up-front, story.Rrsimone (talk) 00:36, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

Richard R. Simone

July 28, 2024 Rrsimone (talk) 00:36, 11 August 2024 (UTC)