Talk:Armenian genocide

"Armenians lived in Anatolia" is falsification of a secondary source

A clause in sub-section "Armenians in the Ottoman Empire" states: “[...] Armenians lived in Anatolia”. The clause is supported by just 1 (one!) ref., Suny 2015, p. xviii. But here's what Suny writes on p. xviii, ad verbum: "Some 2 million Christian Armenians lived in the Ottoman lands, most of them peasants and townspeople in the six provinces of eastern Anatolia." The editor's clause figuring in the text of this article is thus a pure falsification of what the author of a secondary source has written.73.173.64.115 (talk) 01:33, 15 June 2024 (UTC)Davidian

I've edited the article to note that the 2m number is in Ottoman territory. The 15–17.5m still applies to Anatolia. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 01:42, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

I'm sorry to have to say this, but the edit as it now looks: "[...] Armenians lived in Ottoman territory, mostly in Anatolia, a region with a total population of 15–17.5 million" fits for the wastepaper basket. Why? Because (1) Armenians did not live mostly in Anatolia. Anatolia, as Greeks have called the region, was the central, western and westernmost part of the Asia Minor peninsula. Whereas most Armenians lived outside of Anatolia, in the Armenian Highlands, in the eastern and easternmost part of the peninsula, or in the eastern provinces of the Ottoman Empire; (2) ~15–17.5 million was the total population of the empire (including the abovementioned Armenian-populated eastern provinces), therefore to say that Anatolia (that is, only one region in the Ottoman Empire) had a total population of 15–17.5 million is nonsense.73.173.64.115 (talk) 02:10, 15 June 2024 (UTC)Davidian

I think the language is consistent with the source. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 02:20, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

Ideally we would find a source with a solid estimate of population in Anatolia itself (there were relatively few Armenians who lived elsewhere in the empire )—maybe if I had more time to look in Akcam, Kevorkian, or Dundar I could give you something better. (t · c) buidhe 02:28, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

It’s exactly the other way round. There were fewer Armenians who lived in Anatolia proper than in the six eastern provinces of the empire located east of Anatolia. And you know it, don’t you? Stop pretending that you don’t. Please. 73.173.64.11573.173.64.115 (talk) 01:20, 22 June 2024 (UTC)Davidian

I did your job for you (I don’t mind) and looked into another RS that disagrees with Suny’s view (that is, contains a conflicting info) which you said you wished to have more time to look into. Well, here’s Akcam. And this is what he writes on p. xviii in “The Young Turks’ Crime Against Humanity”: “According to this reform agreement, the Armenians were to participate on an equal basis in the local administration of what now constitute the eastern provinces of Turkey (an area that is also known as historic or Western Armenia), where the Armenians were living in dense concentrations.” Source: Taner Akcam, The Young Turks’ Crime Against Humanity: The Armenian Genocide and Ethnic Cleansing in the Ottoman Empire (Princeton; Oxford: Princeton University Press, 2012), p. xviii. Now, are you required by Wikipedia’s own policies and regulations (WP:CONFLICTING) to include all significant views in order to maintain a neutral point of view? Yes? Then kindly include Akcam’s view that Armenians were living in what now constitute the eastern provinces of Turkey, in an area that is also known as historic or Western Armenia. I'll get Dündar for you in the meantime, another RS which you said you wished to have more time to look into.73.173.64.115 (talk) 20:33, 23 June 2024 (UTC)Davidian

I’ll help you give your readers something better than just one source (Suny 2015) supporting your all-time favourite language “Armenians lived mostly in Anatolia”. Here’s an RS, coincidently the one which you said you wished to have more time to look into. Well, here’s Kévorkian. And this is what he writes on p. 265 of his “Complete History”: “Although most Armenians still lived on the Armenian high plateau—then known as the eastern vilayets—communities of greater or lesser density had long since been implanted in western Asia Minor, European Turkey, and Constantinople”. Source: Raymond Kévorkian, “The Armenian Genocide: A Complete History” (London; New York: I.B. Tauris, 2011), p. 265. Because editors here are required by Wikipedia’s own policies and regulations to include all significant views in order to maintain a neutral point of view, kindly rephrase the sentence in Background starting with “On the eve of World War I in 1914, around two million Armenians lived in Ottoman territory, mostly in Anatolia,[...]”. As wee see, there are RSs that place the Armenians in the “Armenian high plateau—then known as the eastern vilayets”. Please indicate that other RSs (Kévorkian, for instance) disagree with Suny’s view. I understand from WP:CONFLICTING that “if the conflict is about an interpretation of the facts”, the editors must include “all significant points of view with appropriate attributions”. Am I correct? Thanks.73.173.64.115 (talk) 19:49, 23 June 2024 (UTC)Davidian

Lastly, I checked Dündar, “Crime of Numbers”, another RS which you said you wished to have more time to look into. Dündar does not specify the Armenian historical habitat except that, on p. xiii, he writes, “It is not an easy task to study and express in words the period of 1878-1918, when Armenians were forced out of their ancestral lands, where they had lived for thousands of years, and subsequently annihilated”. Source: Fuat Dündar, “Crime of Numbers: The Role of Statistics in the Armenian Question (1878-1918)” (New Brunswick; London: Transaction Publishers, 2010), p. xiii. Well, all three RSs, which you said you wished to have more time to look into, have now been looked into. Let’s now see how all significant views, as required by WP:CONFLICTING, are reflected in the opening sentence of the second para. in Background. I can hardly wait.73.173.64.115 (talk) 23:35, 23 June 2024 (UTC)Davidian

Well, no. The language is not consistent with the source. Try to not indulge yourself… Please. Here’s what Suny has written… again: “Some 2 million Christian Armenians lived in the Ottoman lands, most of them peasants and townspeople in the six provinces of eastern Anatolia.” And here’s how you mispresented Ron’s words: “On the eve of World War I in 1914, around two million Armenians lived in Ottoman territory, mostly in Anatolia, a region with a total population of 15-17.5 million.” Even if we operate with the geographical term “Anatolia” which, historically, has nothing to do with the indigenous habitat of the Armenians, there is a huge difference between the landmass that Greeks called “Anatolia” and the relatively recent toponymic invention “eastern Anatolia” which the Turks had coined in order to replace the geographically and historically correct term “Armenia”, “Armenian Highlands” or “Armenian Plateau”, which lay, again, east of Anatolia. Most Ottoman Armenians lived in the six provinces of eastern Anatolia (do you see this clause in Ron’s sentence to which you’re referring?), that is, in the lands east of what Greeks called “Anatolia”. Whereas you want your readers to be duped into a hogwash that Armenians lived mostly in Anatolia. To substantiate my statement, I suggest the following language: “Between 1.6 to 2.4 million Christian Armenians lived in the Ottoman Empire, most of them peasants and townspeople in the six eastern provinces of the empire.” Scores of RSs for the range between 1.6 to 2.4 million can be easily found, as they sit, unattended, in the Archives.73.173.64.115 (talk) 01:11, 22 June 2024 (UTC)Davidian

I am familiar with your view on "Eastern Anatolia", but I think it's very clear that Suny does not say "east of Anatolia". Hence my continued view that the article language is consistent with the source. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 02:12, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

It is not my(?!) view on “eastern Anatolia”. It is the view of many authors in RSs, whom you’ve effectively shelved in the Archives—all indicating that at the time of the genocide there was no such a geographical term as “eastern Anatolia” associated with the historical homeland of the Armenians and that the Armenians’ historical habitat was never known as Turkey’s toponymic invention “eastern Anatolia”. It is that mentioning more geographically and historically correct terms (e.g., “Armenian Highlands” or “Asia Minor” or “West Asia”) does not fit your preferred—and greatly flawed—narrative.

Suny does not say “east of Anatolia”, I never said he did, but he does say that “Armenians lived in the Ottoman lands […], most of them […] in the six provinces of eastern Anatolia”. Whereas you say that “Armenians lived in Ottoman territory, mostly in Anatolia”. Does Suny say “Armenians lived mostly in Anatolia”? No? Then be so kind as to conform to the author’s exact words because, as it looks now, the language is absolutely inconsistent with the source.73.173.64.115 (talk) 18:34, 23 June 2024 (UTC)Davidian

In my reply to this editor (t · c) buidhe above, I believe I've proven to you, for all readers and other editors here to see, that "eastern Anatolia" is not my (what?!) view, but is excluded from works of such reputable scholars on the subject of the Armenian Genocide as Kévorkian and Akcam. Have a good day...73.173.64.115 (talk) 20:43, 23 June 2024 (UTC)Davidian

Kevorkian uses the term "eastern Anatolia" repeatedly. For example, on page 2: "the realities that emerged in the Armenian provinces of eastern Anatolia and the Armenian communities of western Anatolia". Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 02:16, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

If you think you’re so damn good at reading Kévorkian, please be aware that he does not use the term “eastern Anatolia” “repeatedly” (what?!). In truth, in his 1025-page volume The Armenian Genocide: A Complete History, Kévorkian uses the term only eleven times, of which, just so you know, the term figures in conjunction with the Armenians only four times (see pp. 2, 81, 136, and 150). Now, go explain to your readers and fellow editors how four lousy mentions make usage of the term on a repeated basis. Good luck to you. And, by the way, Kévorkian uses the term “Armenian plateau” in conjunction with the Armenians seven times. What do you say to that?

Also, please take this as good advice from a professional in the field, if you decided to look more thoroughly into Kévorkian in an attempt to dig out anything in support of the claptrap “Armenians lived mostly in Anatolia”, please be aware that he never uses that phrase as it figures in the text of your ridiculous article, but always in conjunction with “the Armenian provinces”, and not in Anatolia but in eastern Anatolia, thus indicating that it is the Armenian-populated eastern provinces that represented a part of the Armenians’ historical habitat.

Lastly, if you decided to specialize in Kévorkian, kindly take heed of endnote 1 on p. 873. Do you see endnote 1 on p. 873 where the author explains how the name “Armenia” has been replaced by “eastern Anatolia”? I think the endnote is worth quoting in full for all your editors, readers, and contributors here to see:

“Ministère des Affaires étrangères, Livre jaune, documents diplomatiques, 1875–1877, Paris 1877,

p. 135, annexe I au 7e protocole de la Conférence de Constantinople, séance du 11 janvier 1877.

Let us note, in connection with the eyalet of Ermenistan, that the name “Armenia” has, in the

re-editions of seventeenth-century and eighteenth-century Turkish authors published in the past

few decades, quite simply become “Eastern Anatolia.” This holds, notably, for the second edition of the work of the seventeenth-century author Kâtip Çelebi (Hayati ve eserleri hakkinda incelemeler, Ankara 1957, p. 127) in which the title of Chapter 41, “About the Land of Armenia,” has been replaced by “Eastern Anatolia (cf. the fi rst edition, Constantinople, 1732, p. 227). For more detail, see A. Papazyan, “Քյաթիբ Չելեպիի “Ճիհան–Նուման Որպես Աղբյուր Հայաստանի Պատմական Աշխարհագրութեան [The “Jihan-Numa” of Kâtip Çelebi of the Geographical History of Armenia],” Badma–Panasiragan Hantes 3 (1983), pp. 229–32. For more detail on the administrative subdivisions of the Ottoman Empire, see the excellent article by K. Patalyan, “Վանի Նահանգը 1840–ական–1914 թթ. [The Province of Van in the Years 1840–1914],” Panper Erevani Hamalsarani 3 (1986), pp. 13–20 which makes systematic use of the Ottoman Salname.”

Let me know if I could be of further help in correcting the absurdities in your article so we can jointly improve it (isn't this your primary function in Wikipedia?). Cheers73.173.64.115 (talk) 17:13, 21 July 2024 (UTC)Davidian

Constantinople

Someone wrote constantinople in the deportation part but it was named Istanbul on those times 31.152.236.80 (talk) 12:18, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

We have a rough consensus to use Constantinople before 1923. English language sources didn't start using "Istanbul" until well after Turkey was founded. Therefore we use pre-Turkish republic names such as Smyrna, Constantinople, Urfa, Antep etc. (t · c) buidhe 14:30, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

Infobox text in “Armenians in the Ottoman Empire” incorrect

There is a miscount in the Infobox to the right of the “Armenians in the Ottoman Empire” subtitle. Another of the editors’ absurdities. Listed are five vilayets but then the text says that they represented “the six most heavily Armenian-populated Ottoman vilayets”. Sivas, the sixth one, is missing, dearest editors. And one falsification of an RS text in ref. 4. Nowhere on p. 279 does Kévorkian (The Armenian Genocide: A Complete History) say that these vilayets were “the six most heavily Armenian-populated Ottoman vilayets”. This is what the author says on p. 279, ad verbum: “According to the figures presented in the previous chapter, of the 2,925 towns and villages of the empire in which Armenians lived, no fewer than 2,084 were located on the Armenian high plateau, properly speaking – that is, in the vilayets of Erzerum, Van, Bitlis, Mamuret ul-Aziz, and Dyarbekir.” By the way, did I mention that Kévorkian uses “the Armenian high plateau” and not “Anatolia” in this particular clause? Cheers73.173.64.115 (talk) 18:32, 21 July 2024 (UTC)Davidian

Good points. The caption now includes Sivas, and the text more closely matches Kevorkian's village-based analysis. There is still a problem, since Kevorkian doesn't use the "Six Villayets" concept explicitly on the page cited. Also, if we want to introduce the "Six Villayets", just doing so in this caption is odd. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 15:57, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

Thank you.73.173.64.115 (talk) 16:58, 23 July 2024 (UTC)Davidian

During the Congress of Berlin in 1878, these vilayets were referred to as Six Armenian Vilayets, not Six Vilayets.73.173.64.115 (talk) 18:16, 23 July 2024 (UTC)Davidian

Yes, but the cluster is given so many names by the sources, and I'd prefer to use the title of the linked article. You might want to propose a move of the linked article if you think that "Six Armenian Vilayets" would be a better title. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 19:47, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

Six Armenian Vilayets (or, more precisely, "the provinces inhabited by the Armenians") was the name originally figuring in the official documents of the 1878 Congress of Berlin. Turks, of course, labored to drop anything "Armenian" in their "best" traditions, and I'm sorry to say, the title of the linked article, Six Vilayets, follows this Turkish preference. Whereas one would think the title must have followed the original name version and not the Turkish distortion.73.173.64.115 (talk) 15:47, 24 July 2024 (UTC)Davidian

Ref. 6 – another editorial falsification of an RS

Nowhere on p. xiv (a page figuring in ref. 6) under the subtitle "Armenians in the Ottoman Empire", does Suny (They Can Live in the Desert but Nowhere Else) say or suggest anything remotely resembling to “The presence of Armenians in Anatolia has been documented since the sixth century BCE, about 1,500 years before the arrival of Turkmens under the Seljuk dynasty”. In fact, on that page Suny discusses Bernard Lewis’ balderdash about the heart of the Turkish homeland being in Anatolia contrary to the historical truth that the Turks’ homeland is in Central Asia.73.173.64.115 (talk) 13:55, 23 July 2024 (UTC)Davidian

Suny removed. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 16:11, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

Thank you.73.173.64.115 (talk) 16:58, 23 July 2024 (UTC)Davidian

“Armenians lived in Ottoman territory, mostly in Anatolia” – editorial distortion of words in RS

In the Background section, under the subtitle “Armenians in the Ottoman Empire”, first sentence of the second para. states that “[…] Armenians lived in Ottoman territory, mostly in Anatolia, a region with a total population of 15-17.5 million”. This clause is supported by only one lousy reference, ref. 12, although two other equally Reliable Sources, Kévorkian and Akcam, containing different significant views on the same subject, have been brought to editors’ attention but had never been added as they must have been according to WP:CONFLICTING. Ref. 12 refers to Suny, 2015 (They Can Live in the Desert but Nowhere Else), p. xviii. This is what this author, whom the editors, I have no doubt, have chosen because it contains their all-time favorite language “Anatolia” as opposed to Kévorkian and Akcam who do not use that absurd term (in relation to Armenians) and who are, again, as reliable as Suny and thus must be included as source of significant other views, writes on p. xviii: “Some 2 million Christian Armenians lived in the Ottoman lands, most of them peasants and townspeople in the six provinces of eastern Anatolia [whose] population estimated to be between 15 and 17.5 million inhabitants.” Compare this original sentence with what the editors of this article have cobbled up: “On the eve of World War I in 1914, around two million Armenians lived in Ottoman territory, mostly in Anatolia, a region with a total population of 15-17.5 million.” But, dearest editors, don’t you see that Suny uses “lands” and not “territory” and that he clearly refers to “eastern Anatolia” and not the load of crap “mostly in Anatolia”? And not just in eastern Anatolia, but in the six provinces of it, which I believe you know well were widely known as Six Armenian Vilayets? What’s the point of distorting, so unceremoniously, the words of an RS author? And in case some editor pops up here telling me from his or her high horse that there is no difference between “land” and “territory”, well, sorry to disappoint, there is an essential difference. Land is central to the identities and ways of life of indigenous peoples, such as the Armenians. Whereas territory is an area of land under the jurisdiction of a ruler or state.73.173.64.115 (talk) 14:55, 23 July 2024 (UTC)Davidian

I want to make sure I understand. Among other things, you're saying that Suny, when he refers to "between 15 and 17.5 million inhabitants" is referring to the Six Vilayets, and not all of Anatolia? Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 16:16, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

Suny breaks it into two separate sentences, whereas in your article they are combined into one. Thus the confusion. This is what Suny writes: "Some 2 million Christian Armenians lived in the Ottoman lands, most of them peasants and townspeople in the six provinces of eastern Anatolia. [FULL STOP] In an Anatolian population estimated to be between 15 and 17.5 million inhabitants, [...]". So, as you can see, only the second sentence refers to the population of all of Anatolia. Whereas the first one outlines the place of habitat of the Armenians. According to Suny (and he is not the only RS and not the only significant view as I hope I've shown), "Armenians lived in the Ottoman lands, [...] in the six provinces of eastern Anatolia." Again, this is only one of a few significant views. Kévorkian and Akcam offer significant other views (see above) and according to WP:CONFLICTING MUST be added in the sentence in order to maintain a neutral point of view. This is not about bad faith or good faith. This is about following your own Wikipedia policies.73.173.64.115 (talk) 16:39, 23 July 2024 (UTC)Davidian

I read the article sentence as also saying that the 15–17.5 million applies to all of Anatolia, so it's in line with Suny. If others think confusion is likely, we could change to "... mostly in Anatolia. The region had a total population of 15-17.5 million." Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 19:45, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

I fail to understand why and how the total population of all of Anatolia (15-17.5 million), mentioned in Suny as a separate sentence, can be linked or is in any way related to where the Armenians lived? If you feel it is so necessary to mention the population of all of Anatolia, you may want to compose a separate sentence for that. But please don’t involve Armenians in this unrelated landmass, because the prevailing majority of them lived outside of Anatolia. Am I not making myself understood? Suny calls their habitat “six provinces of eastern Anatolia”, Akcam “eastern provinces of Turkey (an area that is also known as historic or Western Armenia)”, Kévorkian “the Armenian high plateau—then known as the eastern vilayets”. What is common in all of these equally reliable sources is “eastern provinces”. This can be easily combined into one sentence that would represent all three significant views, for example: “two million Armenians lived in the six provinces of eastern Anatolia, an area that is known as historic or Western Armenia or the Armenian high plateau”. And then you add references to each of these geographic terms from Suny, Akcam, and Kévorkian. WP:CONFLICTING is thus observed and everyone is happy.73.173.64.115 (talk) 20:17, 23 July 2024 (UTC)Davidian

Refs. 11 and 4 in Armenians in the Ottoman Empire incorrect, inconsistent with RS

In the section “Armenians in the Ottoman Empire”, ref. 4 placed after the sentence “Armenians were a minority in most places where they lived, alongside Turkish and Kurdish Muslim and Greek Orthodox Christian neighbors”, is incorrect and inconsistent with the RS (The Armenian Genocide: A Complete History). Nowhere on p. 279 does Kévorkian state that “Armenians were a minority in most places where they lived”. The author only acknowledges that Armenians lived alongside Turks, Greeks, and Kurds.

Almost similarly, Suny (They Can Live in the Desert but Nowhere Else) in ref. 11 does not state explicitly that “Armenians were a minority in most places where they lived”. This is actually a distortion of what he says on p. xviii: “In an Anatolian population [ALL of Anatolia—Davidian] estimated to be between 15 and 17.5 million inhabitants, Armenians were outnumbered by their Muslim neighbors in most locations, though they often lived in homogeneous villages and sections of towns, and occasionally dominated larger rural and urban areas.” I fail to see how this clause may suggest that “Armenians were a minority in most places(?!) where they lived”.

Besides, your beloved Suny is only one of many RSs representing only one of a few significant views. Here’s, for example, another one, Joost Jongerden and Jelle Verheij, eds., “Social Relations in Ottoman Diyarbekir, 1870-1915” (Leiden, Boston: Brill, 2012), pp. 87-88: “During the late 19th century, the Armenians were still the largest non-Muslim community in the eastern provinces of the Ottoman Empire. Their numbers were highest in the centre of the ancient homeland, the area round Lake Van. However, one could also find sizeable communities of Armenians in both urban and rural areas across large parts of the provinces of Bitlis, Diyarbekir, Erzurum, Mamuretülaziz and Sivas. According to official Ottoman records, the number of Armenians in the so-called ‘Six Armenian Vilayets’ was something round 550,000, or 20 to 25% of the total population. [However, see fn 8], it is generally assumed that there was an undercount. The British Vice-Consul in Diyarbekir quotes a high Ottoman official who told him that ‘all official statistics of the population were utterly unreliable as there were thousands of Kurds and also many Christians who were never entered in the Government registers”.

I’m sorry to have to say this, but this is what happens when other significant views are not included and when you base your narrative on only one (preferred) source (Suny immediately comes to mind), ignoring other significant views.73.173.64.115 (talk) 18:52, 23 July 2024 (UTC)Davidian